I Really Wonder About Some of These People. Do They Have a Life?
I have written a few times about Casey Serin and the comments from the critics are usually the same, blah blah blah, he’s a crook, you don’t get it, he needs to be in jail, blah blah blah.
Mind you these comments telling me I don’t get it are because I had the audacity to say I doubted Casey would be charged or convicted for mortgage fraud.
Well, the buzz in Caseyville is Casey is under investigation by the FBI and as one of the more rabid Casey chasers puts it, a whole bunch of other three letter agencies.
This has spurred some to return and ask if I was going to admit I was wrong?
Then, I committed the sin of all sins, I said that even if Casey is under investigation, we don’t know what interest these three letter agencies have in him. And I had the further nerve to say that we might need to wait for due process to run its course rather than just throw Casey into a cell with Bubba and his “friends”.
Today, “RH” left the following…
Not to be flippant either Tim, but it doesn’t take much imagination to guess what he is under investigation for.
I’m thinking its not homicide, gun-running, or kidnapping.
Obviously the investigation is related to his self-admitted mortgage fraud. Does it really matter whether it is specififcally “mortgage fraud” or “wire fraud”?
Oh, really? It is obviously that huh? Okay Cheif, if you say so, but you will forgive me if I prefer confirmation.
But, “RH” wasn’t finished…
Why do you consistently shift blame for Casey’s actions away from Casey???
You seem to have taken the stance that Casey is a dupe who fell for garbage spouted by slimy real estate gurus. Your belief that he will not be prosecuted for his crimes is part of that (i.e.- what he did lots of others have done, and, law enforcement won’t expend the effort to prosecute poor saps who fell for scams).
If Casey really was a poor sap who fell for a scam then I would agree with you. In fact if that were case I would not want him presecuted myself.
He then goes on to explain how I am completely wrong and none of that applies to Casey Serin. You can read his whole comment by clicking here.
I really wish people actually read the words I wrote right there in the posts in front of them. I have not shifted any blame away from Casey. I have said he is little more than a bad example for real, serious investors to learn how not to invest or speculate. But, I am rethinking that position.
Casey has entered the lexicon with new words like haterz and supporterz and the intentional substitution of loose for lose. There are lots of people who apparently tuned into his weekly talkcasts and sparred with Casey. Then there is a whole group of self-proclaimed “haterz” who conduct their own talkcast after Casey’s. They call theirs the “Haterzcast” and when referring to Casey’s weekly talkcast they call it the “fraudcast”.
I wonder if a hundred or so years from now the phrase, “Your name is Serin” will have replaced, “Your name is Mudd”? (For the non-history types, google is your friend with this.)
Compelling stuff, no doubt and if I didn’t have a 3D life I might hang on every word and continually sit on the various sites pressing the refresh button to get my latest fix. I’m not joking, if you read some of these sites, you begin to wonder when some of these people sleep! It is that continuous.
So, if Casey is under investigation by any TLA (Three Letter Agency) for mortgage fraud and they actually charge him with it, obviously I was wrong. But, it ain’t happened yet!
And, since none of those who scan my posts and then claim I am shifting blame away from Casey haven’t asked, I’ll do it for them…
{clears throat} So, Tim, you don’t think they will go after Casey for mortgage fraud, do you think he is going to just walk away without any consequences?
Signed, Thoughtful Critic
Wow, Thoughtful, I’m really surprised no one has asked me that before. Actually, I think it is very likely Casey will eventually be charged with tax evasion. But, that is not based on any inside, super secret information, just what he has posted about the way he kept his books and how he structured his deals.
“I resemble that remark!”
\
I know what ya mean, check this out…
http://workinprogress.blogs.com/works_in_progress/2007/07/i-cannot-look-a.html
Hey Tim,
I thought my post was special as well. I’m glad you agree. I’m also happy you gave me a special post. This is actually the second time you have done this in response to one of my posts! (insert friendly smile icon here!)
You Said:
“I had the audacity to say I doubted Casey would be charged or convicted for mortgage fraud.”
Well, if you had just said this I would have much less of issue. Truth is you said more than this. You have also:
1.shifted the blame for Casey’s actions from Casey to the gurus
2.doubted whether Casey even committed the crimes he has confessed
My argument to support contention #1:
Since you say we need to refer to what you write, here are own words in your post “What’s the chance Casey Serin will be…”
“The real story to me isn’t Casey, it is how Casey fell for the bogus get rich quick claims of the gurus he fawned over.
The real story is what happened before he started posting on his blog. The real story is about the gurus who “made” Casey into what he is”
To say the gurus “made” Casey and that the gurus are the “real story” does, in my opinion, shift the blame for the situation from Casey and onto the gurus.
Yes the gurus did play a role for sure. But as I said in my last post, even without the gurus Casey does not come off as an upright, hard-working, honest person. I suspect you would agree with this. I say this because (again following your advice and referring to your own words) you say in your post “The real lesson is…”
“Their pitch is always a variation of “fire your boss” and other drivel appealing to lazy and unmotivated people like Casey”
This comment makes me think you won’t argue with my above statement that: “Casey does not come off as an upright, hard-working, honest person”. Additionally, when you comment on Casey’s laziness and lack of motivation you seem appear to acknowledging that there are personality characteristics which make people more likely to fall for a guru’s lines.
This is important. The gurus did NOT make Casey. Casey was the way is before he went to the gurus classes. The gurus took advantage of Casey’s pereviously existing get-rich-quick, lazy, unethical, mindset and attitude. They did not CREATE that mindset and attitude. I tried to make this point in my last post (and in a previous one before that as well):
“The vast majority of the blame lies with Casey and Casey’s own actions.
As I said in a previous post - If it wasn’t real estate gurus that got Casey, it would have been some other get-rich -quick scam.
With or without the gurus, Casey was, because of his get-rich-quick mindset, heading for scams, cons and criminality - one way or another”
O.K., now to contention #2 – your seeming to doubt that Casey even committed the crimes at all.
In your “Response to What’s the chance Casey Serin will be…” you say:
“I say I am not sure he broke the law is because I don’t have the facts and unless one has inside knowledge like copies of the HUD1s and bank records it is really just guessing and speculation even with the admissions Casey has made”
This is true of course. Without seeing the paperwork we don’t know he broke the law.
My best response to this is to refer to one of my favorite qoutes. A guy named Arthur Kornberg won the Nobel prize for Medicine in the ‘70s. He once said (and although its in qoutes I am paraphrasing here): “The simplest answer to any question is usually the simplest one”
Yes, you could say Casey is lying about the whole thing as you indicate in a previous post which I can’t find right now. The whole thing could be a scam to generate internet traffic and attention. Early in the IAFF days there were was a fair sized contingent who strongly advocated this view.
What is the simplest explanation though? In my opinion the simplest explanation is that Casey really did do exactly as he says he did – buy 8 houses in 8 months using no-docs loans which he lied on. That makes a whole lot more sense to me than trying to come up with reasons why someone or (someones) would want to fake such a thing and how they would go about doing it.
So to summarize: if you had left it a simply questioning whether or not Casey would ever be prosecuted for his mortgage fraud then that would be one thing. But you didn’t. You do appear to be shifting the blame from Casey to the gurus and you do appear to be questioning (with some validity I admit since we do live in America where one is innocent until proven guilty) whether or not Casey even committed his self-confessed crimes.
Anyway, I hope we can keep our conversation civil. I apologize for any snarkiness on my part. I still enjoy and find your posts and find them much more informative and thought-proving that most of the posts on most of the other Casey-related websites. I admit that I am addicted to the Casey Serin saga. I don’t feel the need to apologize for that though. Like your intention to use this story as a teaching tool about gurus, I too see that we have much to learn from Casey’s story. I think it speaks volumes about the state of our economy today (the debt bubble, excess liquidity, for examples) and also about the state of our culture (the quest for celebrity, the notion that all publicity is good publicity, for examples).
Take care Tim,
RH
Whoops the Kornberg qoute (or rather parapharse of the qoute) from the previous post is:
“The CORRECT answer to any question is usually the simplest one.”
That makes more sense than: “The simplest answer to any question is usually the simplest one”
My apologies!
Of course we can keep the conversation civil or there won’t be a conversation.
Civil discussions, even disagreements are healthy, informative and can help one learn.
Okay, you took my lack of interest in Casey other than as a learning example and my comments about the crappy gurus to mean I felt Casey shouldn’t be held accountable for his actions or some how what he did was beyond his control.
I didn’t mean it that way but in re-reading the post with your comments in mind I can see how it might give that impression.
Casey got bad advice but as with all things in life we don’t get a pass just because we follow bad advice. Just ask all of the people prosecuted for tax evasion because they claimed the income tax is unconstitutional.
Bad advice has real consequences when followed and of course he should be held accountable. In a perfect world he would have been caught, tried, convicted and punished after the evidence from the first fraud happened.
But, we don’t live in a perfect world.
Personally, I don’t really care what happens to Casey in the way of charges and such. I believe he is reaping what he has sown and I don’t really need to know all the sordid details of what he did or what happens to him.
Casey is by no means unique. The only thing different is he pushed himself and his story onto the internet.
I suspect he expected people to flock to his rescue and send him donations to ’save his houses’ and if there was one small difference in his story that might have happened.
If he had only one house that he and his wife lived in people may have taken pity and sent lots of money.
But, Casey didn’t understand most people in this country hold real estate speculators like him in very low regard.